75. Why “Fixing Everything” Isn’t Working (and What to Do Instead) with Will Acuff

You're listening to how's all that working for ya?

The podcast where we keep it real, ditch the sugarcoating and ask the questions that bring actual change, not just more noise.

I'm your host, Rachel D. Baker, helping you create some breathing room, set healthy boundaries, and reclaim your time without the guilt trip.

This is real talk with a bit of sass, and we are always seeking the truth in God's word.

You guys, I cannot even wait for you to hear today's episode.

It's a little bit longer, I know, but let me tell you, every single second is worth it.

You do not want to miss this interview with Will Acuff.

Wait, what?

Will?

Isn't that a dude's name?

Yes, there's a man on the podcast and we'll talk about that briefly.

But if you don't know who Will is already, I'm going to tell you a little bit about him and then we're going to jump right into it.

Will Acuff is motivated by his faith to help neighbors experience economic opportunity that leads to thriving individuals and families.

How beautiful is that?

And you're going to hear updated stats on this when we talk today.

So that's just as of when I got this information.

Will is a recent Praxis Fellow.

He's currently in the prestigious Leadership Nashville Civic Fellowship.

He's the author of no Elevator to Everest, a book about resilience, family, and finding joy in the climb of doing life with disability.

Originally from Durham, North Carolina and raised in Hudson, Massachusetts, Will graduated from North Carolina State University.

He later earned a Master's degree in Biblical Studies from Reformed Theological Seminary.

He and his wife of 21 years, Tiffany, live in Nashville with their two kiddos.

And we are going to get get into all of that.

We're going to share about that.

You guys, this conversation is so good.

Let's jump into my conversation with Will Acuff.

Welcome, Will, to the podcast.

I'm so excited you agreed to come on today.

Thank you.

So glad to be here, Rachel.

Thank you for having me.

Of course.

I do have to say, as we get started, it's kind of a big deal that you're here.

This is a momentous occasion.

I've been doing this for almost three years now.

You are the first dude on the podcast.

Wow.

That I feel very, very honored.

And I will, I will try to show up.

Well, with that, with that honor.

I realized that before we got on the interview, and it made me think.

I went to a fairly conservative Christian university in Arkansas.

And you know, we did not have coed.

All the dorms were separate guys and girls.

And it was even a big deal if, even if it was somebody's dad or the maintenance guy.

Before anyone could go on a floor in the girls dorms, the dorm mom, we called them dorm moms.

Then she'd get on the intercom to the whole dorm and be like, man on the third floor, There's a man on the third floor.

You know, so that's kind of.

Ladies, there's a man on the podcast.

That's how I feel.

There we go.

Watch out.

No, I'm so excited just to start out, if you'll just let everybody know a little bit about you, because I want to dive into the book, but I also want you to be able to share a little about your nonprofit and things like that.

Yeah, no, thank you, Rachel.

Yeah, so, I mean like the 30,000 foot view of me and my life is I was born in Durham, North Carolina, but then raised outside of Boston.

Um, my dad took us up there for seminary and then ended up being a church planter.

So planted a church in the office of a gas station way back when.

Love it.

Yeah.

Had a really adventurous kind of mission oriented childhood, like local, local missions.

And then went to college back down in North Carolina.

Like I knew as soon as I turned 18, I was like, we don't have to do winters like this, guys.

Like, we can, we can leave here.

Uh huh.

And so came back to the south.

Original plan was, hey, I'm gonna go be a pastor just like my dad.

You know, I'll do undergrads and seminary, et cetera, but fell in love with being in a rock and roll band in college.

Amazing.

So was coming outta college, I was touring everywhere from the Apollo in Harlem to the Dallas Hard Rock and a bunch of, you know, poorly paying bars in between.

Yeah.

And, and, but my day job was I was a research analyst in health policy at Duke University.

So had a really weird kind of dual life.

The kind of life you could only do when you're in your early 20s, you know, 100%.

Yeah, you can really just like kill yourself with the, with the strenuous effort and lack of sleep.

But you know, I, I say that the, the band was good for my ego, but bad for my Soul.

And around that time I met this expert on the AIDS pandemic and he started leading like a small group at his house for about six months where we were wrestling with, you know, how does God think and talk about the poor and feel about the poor?

What are the factors that influence how we think about that?

You know, all those kind of things.

And then we went on this trip to Nairobi, just a small group of us, and, and we all split up once we got there.

So I found myself staying, you know, with this Kenyan family on the edge of one of the worst slums in sub Saharan Africa.

No running water.

And seeing the devastation of the AIDS pandemic and simultaneously seeing what the faith leaders and business leaders were doing locally in response.

And we just sat at their feet and learned from them.

Right.

Well, I came home from that trip and I just had, you know, one of those moments where it's so clear that the Holy Spirit is calling you to a different life.

Yes, absolutely, I had one of those moments.

Now I'd love to say, and I changed everything right away.

Right.

But that would be, that would be a lie.

Instead I, you know, when a teenager hears a thumping noise in the car, right.

They don't go get it fixed.

Right.

Turn up the radio.

Yes.

What is that?

We just literally had that with my daughter, 100%.

Right.

Like that thumping will go away if unattended for a while, right?

Uh huh.

You know, so I turned up the volume to try to drown out the Holy Spirit and fast forward this led to, you know, I think God gives us his loving whisper first and then often gives us his loving sledgehammer next.

Right.

A hundred percent.

And, and I don't mean in a mean or cruel way.

I mean like in an invitation to live the life that we are meant to be living, which is a life of joy and flourishing.

And so my wife and I on our honeymoon had a health crisis and our honeymoon ended in the er.

So our first two years of marriage were like rebuilding from the ground up in a really profound and intense season full of suffering.

And coming out of that, we were like, oh my gosh, we've been called to love those in the margins and we don't know how to do it.

Right.

It made me realize I didn't have a theology of neighbor.

And so about 20 years ago, my wife and I moved into a low income neighborhood right in like kind of downtown ish Nashville and started a ministry eventually called Corner to Corner.

And Corner to Corner was really, you know, born from our heart of.

We saw all these amazing image bearing neighbors.

Right.

With God given passion, creativity, and drive.

Right.

But they didn't have a bridge of opportunity to express that in a way that would get them out of poverty and keep them out.

And so we launched corner to Corner and quickly landed on entrepreneurship as like, our primary focal point.

And so we help train underestimated neighbors with everything they need to launch and grow their own small business.

And we now have helped launch right.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

So poverty alleviation work, you know, is kind of my.

It's kind of my day job.

Huh.

Huh.

Amazing.

Yeah.

And then in the middle of all that, you know, my wife and I adopted two kids from Memphis and had a completely different kind of adventure at home.

Huh.

And I just for the record, I'm from Memphis.

That's my hometown.

That's.

My parents are still there.

My sister and her husband and their kids live there.

So.

Shelby County.

Yes, Shelby County.

The 901.

It's where I graduated high school.

That's so fun.

Well, I love that.

And I loved.

There was one word that really jumped out to me as you were explaining all of that and explaining the community that you serve.

Underestimated.

I love that.

I know it's so intentional because I know you've been doing this long enough.

You're real intentional with your mission statement and what you're about.

And so I 1 love the intentionality behind it.

But also, it's beautiful as you talk about learning to be a neighbor and what that looks like and knowing the people around you, it just.

Thank you.

I just.

I appreciate that so much.

Yeah, yeah.

I love that word underestimated.

Because the reality is, you know, C.S.

lewis was right.

You've never met a mere mortal.

Right.

Yeah.

And.

And I think sometimes we, in Christian circles, we forget and we see each other with like a sin first lens almost.

You know what I mean?

Yes.

As if we start reading the bible in Genesis 3 instead of Genesis 1.

Right, right.

And so grounding ourselves like.

No, no, no, no, no.

Who you are at your foundation is an image bearer of the most high.

Yeah, Right.

And man, what is it like to.

To see our neighbors from that standpoint?

Because then we're not doing like, we're not seeing them in their need.

We're seeing them who they truly are and their potential.

Right.

And then underestimated just lands.

You know, you're like, oh, yeah, yeah, that's Right.

Yes, that's perfect.

And there's, there's a piece of what you just said with the church Christian lens.

All I do want to dive into that a little bit down the road.

But first, okay.

This book.

Will, listen, the book, everybody is no Elevator to Everest.

Shift from survive to thrive through Spirit led Self awareness.

I first heard you speak about this book.

You were on your brother's podcast last spring.

Listen, I've been following John.

I don't even know.

2015, I think, was the first time I heard him speak.

And so we've, I've done some book launches with him.

We've been through the things.

I've thought one of these days, maybe John will be the dude on the podcast.

You know, and then I heard you and got your book and I was like, oh, nope, this is it.

We gotta, we gotta talk to Will.

Because it is this beautiful resource.

We talked a little bit before we started recording about willingness to be open with all the things, with what you've been through, with how God has been with you through it, even though it might not have felt like it at the time, you know, but it's, it is this beautiful resource of your personal experience, your testimony, and you include the practical piece, those guided practices that do help make that shift from surviving to thriving.

So could you, for those who haven't read it yet, just share a little your backstory of what was like, I think I need to write this book.

What got you there?

Yeah.

So an intense suffering is what got me there.

Right.

I hear that.

Right.

We're going through all the new parents stuff.

And then around age two and a half, he stopped sleeping through the night.

And not like the occasional blurry nights that, you know, a lot of young parents know well.

Right.

But more like, you know, he'd sleep maybe two nights out of 10.

And that started us down the process that so many of, of, you know, your listeners know of getting one diagnosis after another.

Where you go, we think it's this.

Oh, and it might also be this.

Well, maybe it's really this.

Right?

Yes, yes.

And that was our family's introduction to disability and fast forward over time, you know, he was diagnosed with a sleep disorder, intellectual disability, severe adhd, moderate to severe autism, which for him in most circumstances really means high support.

Right.

So verbal but with high support needs.

Yes.

And then most recently, a neuromuscular, rare genetic disease.

Like he's one of 50 known cases right now.

So wild.

And, you know, in the.

In the face of that, I did what I always do, which is find a problem and solve a problem a hundred percent.

Yeah.

I can fix this.

Yes.

I can fix this.

And that serves us so well in so many parts of our lives.

It does not serve you in the face of your child with unique needs.

Correct.

Yeah.

Because I. I was failing nonstop.

Mm.

So my identity was getting rocked.

My frustration level was going up.

My desperation.

Right.

All the things.

Yeah.

And a.

And I'm not sleeping.

Right.

And then my wife and.

And I have permission.

Her.

Her blessing to speak about this.

You know, she had depression in the face of this.

Yeah.

Like a major depressive.

You know, episodes were happening, which would mean, you know, suicidal ideation, hard to get out of bed on a lot of days, you know, and so I applied the same problem solve mindset there, too.

Yeah.

I can fix this.

I.

It's not working over here, but maybe it'll work here, especially if I try four times as hard.

Right?

Yes.

Yes.

And so I just got to a place where every day was worse than the one before.

And in the midst of that, my.

My wife actually first found this trauma retreat center that she was like.

She came home from it with some sparks of new hope.

Right.

And I don't want to oversimplify that.

It was not like she went there for four days and everything was perfect.

Right.

No.

Right.

There was still a long journey on the other side of that.

But she came home with these new sparks, and she was like, hey, you need to go.

And in my pain and hurt and arrogance, I was like, oh, heck no.

Right.

Like.

And I think, again, I.

My actual line was, haven't we been therapized enough?

Right.

I get that feeling.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And also, don't invent words like, that's not a good sign.

But I did go, and day one, I had a chip on my shoulder.

I'm here for my wife, and I'm here to get language to help her.

Right.

It's all me fix her.

Yeah.

And I.

And I say that now with a sense of, oh, man, how arrogant.

Right?

Lord, thank you for your mercy.

But by the end of day two, I was cracked open, and the Lord met me in such a tremendous way.

And specifically, it was like I returned to myself.

Right.

And that's.

I go back to, you know, in the prodigal son story in the book of Luke, some translations have it.

And I love this language, that when he's at his lowest low.

Right.

He took the inheritance Went to the foreign city, spent everything.

Now a famine has come.

He's feeding the pigs, desperate to eat their food.

And it says, and no one would give him anything.

Right.

So like rock, rock bottom in that space.

It's some translations say when he returned to himself, that like this deep self awareness moment of who he truly was.

And as he has that moment, he can't do anything but go home.

That's where he truly belongs.

Right.

And so I would describe what I experienced there as like a beautiful homecoming and a reconnection to the Father.

But I also knew I was going back to my everyday life.

Right.

Like, who, who hasn't had like a, you know, a weekend retreat high and then gets their butt kicked on Monday?

You know what I mean?

Yes.

Right.

We go up to the mountaintop, we climb the hard mountaintop and like, oh, I have to come back down, but I know what it's like down there.

Yes.

I'm gonna get run over again.

Yeah.

And so I, what I decided was, no, no, no, no, no.

I am gonna turn my life into a joy lab so that my context, no matter, no longer defines my joy love, full stop.

Right.

And I would ground this biblically.

Like, we see that kind of thinking and that kind of language throughout Scripture.

Absolutely.

David talks about, lord, you'll set a table before me in the face of my enemies.

Lord, you will lay me down to rest even though I'm being a hunted, you know?

Yeah.

Jesus, we're told, endured the pain and the shame of the cross for the joy that was set before him.

Right.

Like there's this language and this theme that's like your context no longer defines your joy.

That does not diminish the real level of pain or suffering you might be experiencing.

Yeah.

But this bigger story is unfolding and it happens from within.

Right.

And so, like, I wanted to learn how to do that.

It's a wild thing to one for you to actively be mindful and consider that thing and then get intentional towards it in an effort to get there.

But I think also, I think it's a big thing to distinguish between that joy in the Lord, you know, the joy that is set before us and being created in his image.

And all those, your identity, being in God versus all the ish that happens in daily life, that makes us want to go back to those old ways, be reactive.

That's a big thing.

I noticed throughout your book that is that idea of being reactive versus proactive in your life.

Yep, absolutely.

Well, and I would say, you know, I was given a Model of faith that was something like, hey, the journey of faith is knowledge of God and knowledge of self.

Just to the extent that, you know, you need Jesus.

But past that, no more knowledge of self.

Right?

Absolutely.

And.

And this ends up meaning if.

If those are the two, you know, feet of walking out the journey of faith, knowledge of God, knowledge of self.

What it meant was I was taught a form of spirituality that knocked out one of the.

One of the feet.

Yes.

And so I ended up hopping.

Right.

Not super effective.

And really, over time, became a brain on a stick.

Like, I could read the Bible in Greek.

Right.

Yeah.

But my faith was dry and brittle.

And if you said, hey, Will, do you know how to take every thought captive?

Oh, no, I don't.

Hey, Will, do you know how to cast your anxieties on the Lord because he cares for you?

No clue.

Because to.

To know how to do that, I'd have to know how to go inward.

Right.

And the great tragedy and, like, irony of our faith is, where does the Holy Spirit abide within us?

Like we're told over and over and over again, the Holy Spirit will come and make a home in you.

Right.

And it was as if I had the source for all life within me, but I'd never learned how to go inward.

Right.

So that was a big.

That mindset shift was huge.

And then learning practices to do that was.

Was massive, and it has changed everything about my life.

Yeah, I. I'm.

I mean, reading the book and talking with you now and hearing you talk, I. I can tell what a drastic change it has made for you.

And it.

It's funny, you know, the title of this podcast is, how's all that working for you?

And I just hear you over and over.

You hit these parts.

It was like, okay, this is what's happening.

How's all that working for?

Oh, it's not really working so good.

Trying to fix everything isn't what, you know, what do we do?

So asking that question, acknowledging the actual answer instead of, I'm fine, like we do.

Right.

And then moving forward to make a change.

So at one point in your book, I have a quote here.

I'm going to just straight read it.

At one point in the book, you said, I believe that every part of my life was infused with sin and brokenness.

So it was logical to always look upon myself with distrust.

And this goes to what you were saying about hopping on one foot.

You said, I was in constant position of guardedness toward my own self.

And I know there are many listeners who struggle with Similar feelings, same.

This is something I've had to work through as well.

Because flesh is sin.

Right.

We are, you know, we are sin.

We are not.

I can't trust my own body, my own thoughts, my own desires.

I hear what you're saying about that being preached a lot growing up.

So.

Yeah.

While these concepts of self awareness and aligning with God's spirit, they're not new.

We've heard this.

No, no.

Yeah.

They're.

They're deeply grounded in Christian theology for thousands of years.

Right.

But as we dive into this with this conversation, it.

They might kind of feel to some kind of scary or even impossible.

So what would you say to other people who might be feeling that same way?

Yeah, I mean, the first thing I would say is like, we cannot approach scripture nor can we approach our relationship with God as if sin is the center of the story.

Right?

Yeah.

That's not true.

God's unconditional love and redemption is the center of the story.

Yes.

Sin is a bit player.

Right.

And when we get that reversed, then we, we are just constantly in a state of almost like self critique and anxiety and resentment towards self and even like hatred towards our own body.

Right.

Like all these things.

Right?

Yes.

If instead it's true that I have come, that you may have life and have it to the full.

If it's true that it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.

Right.

Then something grander is going on.

Yeah.

Something bigger is going on.

And so first there's like the willingness to go, could it be that good?

Could the good news be that good even about me?

Oh my gosh.

Right.

So first there's like the willingness to, to even try that on.

Right?

Yep.

But then practically you start to get to the place of going, oh, well, huh.

I guess, like I always thought the Holy Spirit was my inner critic.

Huh.

That's maybe that's not true.

Right.

Don't do that.

Make good choices.

That's not okay.

Yeah.

Oh, and it turns out, oh, the, the only one called the accuser is Satan.

Yes.

Like, huh.

Oh, God, you know, restores me through kindness.

It's his kindness that leads us to repentance.

Or again, just think about the, the, the story of the prodigal son.

This is Jesus saying, if you want to know what God is, like, this is who my father is.

And he doesn't say, hey, do you know how much you broke your mom's heart?

Hey, what's your repayment plan?

Right.

You're gonna have to earn back your place in this family, young man.

Right.

None of that is the story.

Instead, the, the story when Jesus says, this is who the Father is for you.

The Father goes, hey, do you hear the music?

The band is warming up and the party is for you.

Right.

Running out to meet him, not waiting, tapping his toe with his arms crossed.

100.

Yeah.

And so we have to radically reshift how we understand the abundance of God's grace and mercy.

Right.

And then my, my next question would be like, would you love yourself any less than Jesus loves you?

Right.

Sit with that.

Yeah.

Oh, man.

Right.

Let that penetrate you.

So if, if we're willing to start to try that on.

Yeah.

Then I think we start to move towards ourselves with, with what I would describe as compassionate curiosity.

Yeah.

And I love that word you talk about, curiosity.

And I, I wanted to even just talk about that word because you bring it up quite a bit in the book.

Yeah.

It's huge.

Compassionate curiosity.

And I especially love where you said, if you want to stay where you are, stay like nobody's making you do the things.

Right.

But you said, but if you'd like to see some actual changes and a move toward slightly more joy, try shifting to curiosity.

So what, what is that role, what role does curiosity play in all of this?

Totally.

Let's, let's get really practical.

Yeah.

Because you probably have people listening going, oh, this sounds so like out there.

Or like, what does this look like on a Monday morning?

Okay.

Yeah, no, we love the practical game plan.

I'm here for that.

Yeah.

So let's bring it down to earth.

Right.

The first thing is like, I'll, I'll use myself as an example.

I had every reason that you can think of to feel like I was a victim in my own life.

Right.

Woe is me and somebody going, hey, you should just try a quiet time.

I'd be like, what?

When my son doesn't sleep?

Right.

Right.

So the first thing I said in this kind of shift was, you know what?

No, I'm going to try new things on because I am responsible for my physical, spiritual, and emotional well being.

So how am I going to show up for myself?

And so practically the first thing I said was, well, I need some carved out time for my own kind of self connection and connection with God in the mornings.

And then immediately it goes, oh, but my son was.

His sleep patterns.

How am I going to pull it off?

And I just went, well, I'm going to have to go to bed earlier.

Mm.

Listen, this is my favorite.

This is my favorite.

I want like the.

The drastic awesomeness that you've taken.

I'm excited.

I'm sorry.

Go, Go for it.

Tell us all the things.

It's so good.

So I literally.

I started going to bed at 8 o' clock because I knew I needed to wake up between four and five, you know, to.

Now.

I wasn't gonna beat him on the mornings where he started his day at one.

Right, Right.

And some of my autism parents out there, you guys know what I'm talking about, Right.

I wasn't gonna o', clock.

But, you know, by this point he was sleeping a little better and some of his days started 5, 30, 6 o'.

Clock.

Right.

So I was like, okay, if I wake up at 4 or 5, then I can get myself close to an hour of stillness.

Okay, well, then.

But I. I'd wake him up with the coffee machine.

Okay.

So I got a single cup, K cup, and I put it in my bedroom.

Right?

Yeah.

Then I said, okay, well, I need a place to sit and be still.

I stole a chair from our living room, put it in the bedroom by the window.

Love it.

So practically, you have to set the stage for where this will happen.

Right.

So if you're listening, like, where will this happen for you?

Yeah.

Right.

And then the other thing I realized is, like, none of us wake up neutral in the morning.

Right.

We all wake up.

Oh, man, I'm anxious.

I'm replaying that conversation I had with my spouse the night before.

Right.

Or I'm.

I've got that big meeting today.

I feel under prepared.

Or what time does kid drop off and pick up today?

Right.

Yeah.

We've all got a million things churning, and most of the time we just shove all that down and just jump into our day.

Right.

But it subconsciously is affecting our behavior all day long.

Yes.

Think about this as like the underwater currents that are moving the boat.

Right.

Yeah.

This is.

This is totally wild.

I woke up the other day, I had a very vivid dream and was so mad at somebody who was like, being mean to my kid or.

I don't even remember all this, but I remember I woke up mad.

And I wasn't actually mad, but like, just to shake that and go through the normal day, I was like, that was silly.

That was a dream.

But I still felt mad for a while.

And so, yeah, totally weird.

Random example, but I get what you're saying, you know, we wake up a certain way and then try to just plug along like normal 100% if we didn't feel that way.

Yeah.

And it shows up as, like, you're snappy with your kids, you're short tempered with your spouse.

You're right.

Like all these things.

Yep.

And so, going back to your question about curiosity.

Yeah.

So once I set the stage, the first activity I did was I got curious about what I was feeling.

Right.

And I think about this as like, looking out at a landscape of mountains and then identifying which is the biggest mountain out there today, maybe today it's fear.

And I get still.

I've got my cup of coffee, I do a little breath work just to, you know, four count in, four count out.

Right.

God made us with bodies that do this.

It actually calms us down.

We should know how our bodies work.

Right, Right.

Should.

We should know that.

Right.

They're a gift from the Lord.

And then I like, let's say it's fear.

I would go, huh?

Okay.

In the past, I would've shamed myself for feeling fear.

Oh, you should just trust God more.

Get on with it.

Pray about it.

Pray more.

Right.

All the things.

But now I go, oh, it's okay that you're here.

What's going on?

Fear.

Why am I afraid?

Right.

And then I might come up with, oh, I'm afraid because I'll do a real one.

I'm afraid because things are hard at my son's school right now.

Yeah.

What story am I telling myself about that?

My fear is saying that they're gonna kick him out.

Oh, man.

And then if they kick him out, then we're not gonna find another school.

And.

And next thing you know, my fear has me 10 years from now.

Absolutely.

Right.

Building this catastrophic future.

Yep.

And so the first thing I just understand, oh, this is where all this is coming from.

And then I invite the Holy Spirit.

You know, I will literally say, like, hey, Holy Spirit, are you here with me?

And 100% of the time, the Holy Spirit says, yes, I'm here with you.

Right.

And when I say that, I don't mean there's a booming voice in the room.

Right.

I mean that, like, kind of inner knowing that you can have.

Yes.

Right.

And.

And I say, ah, Spirit, there's a big part of me that just feels so afraid today.

And here's why.

Can you be with me in this fear?

And as I start to do this, slowly but surely what I'm actually doing is casting my anxieties on the Lord.

Is that what that looks like, Will?

Is that what that actually looks like?

Yes.

That's wild because you can't.

You can't cast what you can't pick up, right?

And you can't pick up what you can't name.

And look at.

Ooh, that'll preach, sir.

So good.

And so then I go, okay, I have named this.

I'm accepting of it.

I am trusting the Lord.

I've invited him into it.

I might even say, lord, is there something about this that you want me to know?

Is there insight or wisdom?

The Lord tells us, ask for wisdom and I will provide it.

Right.

And we, we kind of like, well, that would be nice.

That's cute.

Right.

And then I will journal after that and kind of write out what I experienced.

Right.

I find like putting that down really helps.

Yeah.

And then at the end of that time, like again, I'm.

I think it's a.

It's an old school wrong idea.

That's more Greek philosophy than it is Christian.

This spirit body divide.

Like, we are one thing.

Right.

And so like, I'll do like five minutes of really bad yoga in my bedroom.

Like, that just connects me with my body.

A little mobility.

I'm in my mid-40s.

You know, this gets important right there with you.

Just stretch just a few minutes.

Okay.

Okay.

Worked it out 100%.

And then from there, like, the kids are up, I am helping get ready for school, do breakfast.

I'm making my wife a cup of coffee.

Coming in the room and waking her up with that as like our first interaction is one of kindness, an invitation to the day.

Yeah.

And then my wife takes the kids to school and then I do a slow run after that.

It's not fast anybody.

If you, you know, if you're looking for a best time, this is not what's happen.

But I put on some praise and worship, you know, like that's where I'll really dial it in.

And.

And then I'm out the door by 8 o'.

Clock.

But what's happened in those early hours is like, I have grounded myself.

I would describe it as like, you know, we say things like, tune my heart, Lord, I've tuned my heart.

Right.

Yeah.

And now.

Doesn't mean I'm going to have a perfect day.

Right.

But it does mean I'm gonna meet that day from a completely different place.

I love that.

And I think that's so good to point out because, you know, as often as we hear things about like, start your morning for you and you should have.

And we talk about it here a lot.

And it was so interesting as you were talking about these different steps.

A lot of the things that you were talking about, we talk about Here.

As far as, like, creating some breathing room for yourself, setting some healthy boundaries, starting your morning with God in some way, you know, to kind of protect that piece and set your intention.

But even just, you know, I'll talk about writing things down when you, like, do a brain dump, you know, you got all these things swirling in your head, get them out, dump them on paper.

But I love what you.

When you talked about journaling those thoughts, it's the same thing.

Getting those things in front of your eyeballs for whatever reason, it makes a big difference and you're able to process it more fully and more efficiently, I guess.

Yep.

So I loved hearing that.

As you're talking about setting your day, you also mention, and the day's gonna come, spending this time with God, being intentional with yourself, with God, doesn't mean you won't still walk through the valley of the shadow of all the things that may be the season.

Still.

Still.

Oh, yeah.

But I love, you know, that Psalm, Psalm 23, you know, I walked through the valley of the shadow of death, but you are with me.

Uhhuh.

And I think we, we kind of segment that somehow when we read, so we don't think, what does that look like?

Totally.

Well, and let's.

Let's unpack that for a second.

Right.

Because I think often we mistakenly teach that as, like, it happens in different seasons.

Yes.

Right.

Where I think this is just a day with a.

With a sheep and a shepherd.

Yeah, yeah.

Because like, you make me to lay down in green grass.

Right.

The only sheep that lays down in a bunch of green grass is one that's already ate.

It's full.

Oh, you satisfy me.

You lead me beside streams of water.

Right.

Again.

The only sheep that's walking next to a beautiful stream is one that's already drank.

It's full.

Yeah.

Like there's all this.

Like you are satisfied.

And part of the day is there might be a storm, you know, like this might.

You might hit some patches.

Right?

Yeah.

But your rod and your staff, they comfort me.

You're with me 100%.

You guard me around and within.

Right.

Yep.

Yeah.

I. I do love in this conversation the ability to say it's not, you know, as we would say in the Church of Christ, like, separate and apart.

These are not separate and apart.

We do that for communion and contribution.

You know, in this incident, it's not a separate and apart valley of the shadow and the green pastures.

Yeah.

That these are happening different months.

Right.

These are happening in a normal 24 hour cycle.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

But, but the, the key thing about that whole passage is this beautiful trusting interdependence.

And again, go to.

Not to get too nerdy and theological, but like, let's go.

I think sometimes we, we stop the story at the cross.

And in so many ways the cross is the beginning and not the end.

Because the rest of the New Testament is.

Now you have union with the Father, the Son and the Spirit.

Yes.

I am the vine, you are the branches remain in me.

Right?

Yes.

So what's happening now is even more intimate than a sheep and a shepherd.

Like we are caught up into the life of.

And if you maintain the illusion that I am separate and that I'm on my own, then man, the day is gonna just take its toll.

Yep.

But when we are plugged in to the life giver.

Right.

Then we get that Jeremiah 17 language of like the tree that is planted by the river even in the drought.

Cause the drought's gonna come is still bearing fruit.

Crazy.

Right?

And, and I think that is.

This sounds audacious, but I think that is.

Should be the normal Christian experience.

A hundred percent.

Yeah.

That I'm getting my butt kicked on the one hand.

And also.

Oh my gosh, look at all this fruit happening simultaneously.

Right, right.

And I'm getting my butt kicked.

And also I'm okay.

100%.

I'm not, I'm not just okay.

I'm.

I'm way better than okay.

Yeah.

And I think, I think that's kind of a.

For those who have lived the majority of life or grown up with that concept of am I okay?

I'm not okay, God's okay.

But I gotta work to get there.

There's striving involved, there's.

I'm good, but I need to be good.

Er, you know, all the.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The work for it.

I think there are baby steps there to say it's.

Everything's hard, but I'm okay.

And actually, and actually, you know, getting to that place of I'm not just I am loved, I am created with purpose, I am worthy of, you know, people.

Because a lot of times we, we say it's selfish.

We, you know, people would say it's selfish for you to set all that time aside for yourself.

Will.

I can't believe that you so crazy.

Then what you're saying is Jesus was selfish.

Yeah.

Because he kept going away by himself.

Yes.

You are preaching my sermon.

You're preaching my sermon.

And I always like to say if it's good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for Me?

Yep.

Absolutely.

If he can take that time, step away from.

And they're even like, where have you been?

All these people are looking for you, and he's like, you.

Oh, absolutely.

No, I had to go.

No.

Because this is, like, the reality for our life.

No matter what you're engaged in, your family, your work, your.

Your community, the need will always outweigh your ability to meet the need.

Yes.

Ooh, that's a good one.

Yep.

Because there's only one fully satisfying savior, and it's not you.

Right.

And so, you know, and then practically, my kids, my wife, my colleagues, they get a better me.

Yeah.

Right.

When I'm grounded and resting in the Lord.

Yeah.

I get.

So it's so silly to be like, no, no, no.

The best you is the one that's always got an empty tank.

That'd be like designing your car to drive on empty.

It doesn't work.

It's not true.

Right.

Yeah.

And I will tell you, I don't know if you're an Enneagram fan, Will, but as a hardcore enneagram 2 recovering codependent, I cannot tell you.

Aren't we all?

How long it has taken me to hit that point of.

Not that I would have ever said out loud, I am God, and I'm what you need and can take care of you.

And, like.

But deep down inside, I'm like, but you need me.

You.

I need.

I need to get in and pour myself dry.

Yeah.

To be a good Christian, 100%, and to finally get to the point where we can say, oh, that's not really true.

And I was putting myself to.

In a position to say.

Almost to say, like, well, I'm.

I'm like God and can do it myself.

And for those of us who keep.

To try living that way, I hit a point where it literally was like, I have this image of God, like, patting me on my head, like, that's cute.

Sit down.

I had my own, you know, health crises and family and, like, things where there was no choice left but to sit on my rear and sort it out with the Lord.

Yeah.

And I'm thankful.

Amen.

So thankful.

But I greatly appreciate you speaking into that, because that's a hard one to learn for some of us.

Well, and this is where this idea of, like, life of the journey, where you're learning the same lesson, I think, repeatedly.

Right.

But it's.

It's not.

It's almost like.

But in an ascending spiral.

Right.

Like, the spiral's getting tighter as you go.

And so, like, you're you're quicker to repent.

Yes.

You're quicker to heal.

You're quicker to ask for forgiveness or to forgive.

Yes.

And.

And you are bearing the fruit of the spirit in more and more abundance as you go.

May it be, Lord, please.

Yeah.

Like codependence is one of those, right.

Where you're like, oh, once again, I am saying I'm only good if they're good.

Oh, I did that thing again.

Okay, Lord, I resigned from being the manager of the universe.

You can have the job back.

Open hands, open hands, Lord.

Just do it again and again.

And I think, you know, my hope with the book is like, it's really vulnerable.

Raw stories paired with really practical, guided steps, like, for each chapter, so that you can go, whatever.

You might read nine or ten different practices and go, you know what?

Six of these didn't work for me before.

These really landed.

And I'm adding them into my life because I think, like, all things joy is a practice.

Yes.

And like, what you set your focus on, really.

And neuroplasticity and everything else we're learning about the brain right now shows that this is true.

So, like, down to the.

If you're thinking incorrect thoughts about yourself, switching, going, oh, I am doing that.

What is God saying about me right now?

Oh, he's calling me beloved.

Huh?

Lord, I believe.

Help me in my unbelief.

Help me to start to think about myself as a beloved.

Right.

Like, just those kind of daily practices will change your life.

Like, that's a guarantee.

Yeah, a hundred percent.

And so with that, because we gotta wind down.

Cause I could sit here, literally and talk about this with you all day long.

So we'll do one last thing from the book.

And it's along the practical practices that you've included.

There was one that I host an annual retreat for women, the Renewal Retreat.

And we get together, there are, you know, some devotionals also if you need to go take a nap or want to read a book or want to go sit by the lake, it's just like, get away from the chaos and renew.

And I had finished reading this book and I thought this is a really good time to introduce a couple of these practices to my lady and just see.

See if one is helpful for them.

So one of them especially was really impactful for one of the ladies at the retreat.

So I wanted to.

Oh, that's so encouraging to hear.

Oh, it was.

And it was.

It was so encouraging to me to hear her speak about it.

And it was one she wanted to keep going With.

And so for this one, you had said, if I can acknowledge what I'm feeling without the shame of having to identify fully with it, to look at it as something I'm experiencing, but not something I am, I have space to breathe and see more clearly.

And so just as a practical gift for our listeners today, can you just kind of share about that and why it's helpful?

Yeah, totally.

So this is this big concept that so often, especially if we're feeling something really big.

Right.

Feeling flooded as the language.

Right.

Yeah.

Then we identify with that feeling.

So I am sorrowful.

Right.

I am angry.

I am furious, like.

Right.

I am afraid.

Yeah.

And that I am.

Language, like, in the language we use is so powerful.

Yeah.

Right.

Because it frames what we are believing and what we're giving meaning to.

So when I am sorrowful, that takes over my whole identity.

And we feel it in our bodies, don't we?

Absolutely.

Like, we have a physiological reaction to this.

Yeah.

And so the.

The space and the way I would recommend you, like, try this, right.

Is like, grab a sheet of paper in the morning and write out, I am sad.

I am like, whatever it is you're feeling on the left side.

And then on the right side of the paper, just draw a little arrow.

And on the right side of the paper, write, I am experiencing whatever that emotion is.

And as soon as you say I am experiencing, what you've just done is you've shifted.

Your I am is greater than that emotion.

Right.

That emotion is just one little part of the bigger thing that is you.

And that, like, I am experiencing sorrow.

That shift gives you.

Just think of it as, like, opening up, like, 10ft of space.

And it can stop you from being so overwhelmed by it that you don't know what to do.

You don't know how to act, don't know how to think about it.

Right.

Suddenly, that 10ft of space gives you enough of a distance to move towards some curiosity.

Oh, yeah.

I am experiencing deep sorrow.

Where is that coming from?

Ah.

I thought my marriage would look different at this point.

And I've never been really able to say that.

I don't know what to do with it.

And that just feels so big.

Okay.

Right.

And it's that little bit of distance that can start to allow you the space for curiosity.

Because it's hard to have any curiosity or even compassion for yourself if you're just totally flooded by that.

That feeling.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

And a lot of.

I know a lot of the people listening right now because this is a space where we are often drowning for one reason or another.

There's often that feeling of drowning.

And again, that language of I am drowning in life versus I am experiencing this feeling.

Yeah.

Like I'm drowning.

What is it that makes.

Getting curious.

What is it that makes me feel like I'm drowning?

Oh, my to do list feels eternal.

What can I do with that?

Yep.

To break it down in steps like that is so helpful.

And I think in this particular, you have several things that you recommend doing with this practice.

One of the things I think was if there was some, you know, I am experiencing sorrow or I'm, you know, anger to write it either on paper or on a rock or something.

And then hold it in your hand.

Yeah.

And feel it.

Yes.

And then drop it.

Yeah.

And I think that piece of it, that particular practice for this, for the lady at my retreat, was so helpful because it helped her in an extra physical way disconnect that from her identity as a whole.

Yep.

I. I still do that very regularly.

Really?

Yeah.

And.

And I, you know, and there's kind of two versions of that practice where one is, if there's something you need to, like, feel fully and then let go of.

Right.

It's like, grab that rock.

Squeeze it.

Yeah.

Feel the sharp edges of it.

Notice how much effort it takes to squeeze it so hard.

Yeah.

And then you put your arm all the way out and just drop it.

Right.

And then notice the sensation in your hand.

Yeah.

How much better does your hand feel?

Right.

Like.

But there's other scenarios, like it might be with your spouse or with your kids or with some colleagues, where you have your hand palm up and you're squeezing and you realize, like, you don't want to be in this relationship with this thing, this person anymore, but you still need to be in relationship with them.

Open your hand and just let that rest there in your hand and feel what that feels like.

To have a sort of openness and a trust in what the Lord is doing.

Yeah.

That's beautiful.

Those two practices.

Yeah, I. I do all the time still.

Yeah.

Well, it's.

It's like what you said at the very beginning of this disconnect a lot of us have between spirit and body.

And it's just.

It's just not how it works, actually.

No.

No.

And that.

That was.

That was Plato.

That wasn't Jesus, you know, and like, it look no further for proof of this than Jesus ate once he was resurrected.

What?

He wasn't just like a floater.

You know what I mean?

Right.

Right.

Wasn't just A ghost floating around.

No.

Yeah, that's.

That's so good.

Okay, last couple questions.

They're super easy as we wrap up today because this has been so fantastic.

Are there tools or strategies that you personally have in place that you found to be most helpful with managing your own time, allowing for that breathing room?

You've mentioned some, but even like paper planner, digit timers, you know, everybody's got their own stuff.

What's yours?

Yeah, I mean, I'm really, really structured on all this stuff, so setting that time in the morning, like I don't miss that.

Somebody once asked me, how often are you hitting that?

Every single day for me.

Yeah.

Right.

The second thing I would say is like, I do try to pay attention to the leadings of the spirit and not think that one dialed in version of A Quiet Time is perfect.

We are a living organic being that is changing.

Pay attention to new practices you need to pick up.

Yeah, but I mean, I use.

I've got a couple tools.

I love the remarkable.

Yeah.

Digital.

Digital pad and paper.

I use that a lot.

Nice.

To kind of set my goals and I do my.

My writing on there.

Love that.

I've seen those.

I trying to think of what.

Rocketbook.

That's what it is.

It reminded me of that.

But I've seen the remark.

I'm interested in that one.

So, yeah, I've been a remarkable user for like five years.

Nice.

Yeah.

Big fan.

Excellent.

Listen, when you find what works for you, you stick with it.

And that's.

You just gotta figure that out.

So.

Okay.

A book or a podcast that you love and would really like to recommend to our people.

Ooh, man.

A book or a podcast, I would say I'll give a shout out to my brother here.

My brother John's podcast.

All it takes is a goal.

Yeah.

So good.

Really good podcast.

He has great guests and it's all very action oriented, which I relate to.

It's not just theory, it's action.

Yes.

Yeah.

In terms of books, I love the book that I'd recommend the Most is the 25th anniversary edition of Henry Nouwen's book, the Return of the Prodigal Son.

Oh, yeah.

Get the 25th anniversary edition.

Okay.

Because it adds like a whole second book onto it.

What?

That is from a weekend retreat that he led.

And it is, I mean, so, so good.

Awesome.

Yep.

Go listen immediately on my list that I'm done.

I got it.

Yeah.

And.

And of course, no elevator to Everest.

Go grab a copy.

Not recommend that.

It's no, it's no Henry Nouwen, but it's pretty solid.

Listen, I mean, I think it's.

It's pretty well up there.

It's so good.

All of this stuff, everything we've mentioned today, we're linking it in the show notes.

Everybody knows from previous episodes.

I'm a fan of your brother John.

I've always been like John.

Maybe he wants to be on our podcast one day.

Listen, we'll beat him out.

You want?

You won, Will.

You won.

Thank you.

Finally, finally, finally winning.

Yeah.

And if people want to keep up to date on Instagram, it's at will.

Joy Acuff.

I've got, you know, regular kind of encouraging little notes and things there.

So, yeah, would.

Would love to stay connected.

Yes.

Do find him.

I'm gonna, you know, we're gonna link website, Instagram.

All that's gonna be in the show notes.

Will, thank you so much for this time.

Thank you, Rachel.

I know you're a busy dude.

You got a lot going on, so I appreciate your time and this conversation.

It's been such a blessing.

Thank you.

Awesome.

God bless you.